Why does this forum have so few women??

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t00fri
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#1by t00fri » 07.05.2007, 20:26

I am not really joking... I am curious.

In my family there are only women besides myself. That's good and very enjoyable. Women are different (of course ;-) ). They add lots of different perspective. Even in Physics and Math and Astronomy and Cosmology and ...there is now a strongly increasing number of women. Also the percentage of women in government is strongly growing.

In this forum they tend to hide or there are simply very few!

I think we should do something about this ;-) . Imagine the moderator was a woman...You wouldn't care?...too bad.

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Christophe
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#2by Christophe » 07.05.2007, 21:28

Actually, I think that's an interesting question. Why are they so few women in 'hard' sciences? Maths, physics, astronomy, computer science all have an overwhelming majority of men. In my engineering school, women represented less than 10% of students overall, and probably less than 5% in CS. And today, working in IT, this male bias is just as obvious.

Is that the case in all countries? Is it a cultual, social thing that pushes women to humanities and men to sciences?
Christophe

ElChristou
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#3by ElChristou » 07.05.2007, 21:31

I can only suppose they have something better to do... :x
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Johaen
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#4by Johaen » 07.05.2007, 21:42

Women are better at English and Social Studies. Men are better at Math and Science. Atleast that's what we were taught in Psychology in High School.

I am a programmer in the Air Force. My flight consists of about 50 enlisted members, 2 of which are women. That's just the way things are.
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#5by PlutonianEmpire » 07.05.2007, 21:55

Bah humbug. We don't need women here. ;)

Celestia should be "XXX" enough for this forum. ;)

Excuse my bad humour. :cry:
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t00fri
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#6by t00fri » 07.05.2007, 22:02

Johaen wrote:Women are better at English and Social Studies. Men are better at Math and Science. Atleast that's what we were taught in Psychology in High School.
....
.


That's way too simple!

My wife is a physicist, my daughter is a physicist...

Take extremely good looking Harvard Professor of Theoretical Physics Lisa Randall, ...only few men are better ;-)

Just enter "Lisa Randall in Google images"...you will be surprised.

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Christophe
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#7by Christophe » 07.05.2007, 22:09

The question is are women/men 'programmed' to be good in humanities/science by nature or by society?

As studies show, there are good arguments for both sides:
http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/847.html

And, as noted by Fridger, the situation is even worse in FOSS, with a men to women ratio of several hundreds to one! (based on applicants to Google's Summer of Code program).
Christophe

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#8by Christophe » 07.05.2007, 22:21

t00fri wrote:That's way too simple!


I agree, the first programmer was a woman! Marie Curie and Ir??ne Joliot-Curie, are two other well known examples of great female scientists.

But those are just examples, they just show that some women can be as good scientists as men, there could still exist a natural difference which could explain the observed bias.
Christophe

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#9by julesstoop » 07.05.2007, 23:07

In my experience women in general just have a much better 'natural' feeling how to spend their time and thus diverse between different interests (professional, social, family, etc...) more easily.

Men on the other hand (again, generally spoken) are more easily carried away by (sometimes) seemingly futile endeavours and tend to forget other aspects of their lives more easily. (At least, that's why I need women as a counter force in my life.)
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#10by t00fri » 07.05.2007, 23:12

Christophe wrote:
t00fri wrote:That's way too simple!

I agree, the first programmer was a woman! Marie Curie and Ir??ne Joliot-Curie, are two other well known examples of great female scientists.

But those are just examples, they just show that some women can be as good scientists as men, there could still exist a natural difference which could explain the observed bias.


Well I do have plenty of statistics concerning women in physics. My wife is even more expert ;-) .

There are quite a number of factors notably for women that make live tough. The two most important ones are:

--young scientists striving for an international career face their most competitive times within an age window say between 25 and 35. For women this is precisely the time when for biological reasons a decision about having a family (with children) has to be made. This is difficult, really.

--good self confidence is an important factor for being successful also in science. Many women lack it as a consequence of their upbringing and/or family background.

While the proportions of female students in physics, math, astronomy, cosmology,...look very encouraging, this changes dramatically when it comes to faculty level positions (because of the two reasons and others above)

Bye Fridger

PS: Back to this forum. /Since years/ I communicate regularly with a woman in this forum --exclusively via PM! She is a regular member (since > 4 years!!) and visits frequently.
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#11by Don. Edwards » 08.05.2007, 00:45

I think I have a very valid reason. Women tend to think of their lives as very busy, so taking time out to use Celestia or even a game is a waste of their time. It?€™s one of the fundamental differences in the way we perceive time and what to do with it. Men take the time for leisure actives that they like. Women do the same, but their actives usually revolve around hearth and home as they used to say. So this I think is the main reason.
Also, I truly think that most of members here are bachelors; yes I know there are quite a few married guys here. But most of us are unattached in one way or another. This also gives the site this stigma of being a guy?€™s site.

Speaking from another point of view, we did have a woman here a few years ago that was interested in being a part of the community, but her ideas were not seen as a good plan for Celestia, which in the long run was probably true. But she was treated by a certain member of this forum rather untactful and even her picture was paraded around, and I am pretty sure the guiltily party knows who they are. Not something most women care to have done on the open internet, even if her picture was from another site. She was treated quiet badly all in all and I am not at all surprised that more women have put the foot forward around here. Things like what happened to her have a way of spreading around in the female community at large and they stay away from sites that this kind of thing happens on.

So I think in the end, one of the main reasons that women stay away is that they honestly don't think they will be taken seriously here, and that if they do try and participate they will be ridiculed. Sorry but this is how I see it. And until more women step forward to prove me wrong, I am standing by this statement.

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#12by LordFerret » 08.05.2007, 03:45

t00fri wrote:
Johaen wrote:Women are better at English and Social Studies. Men are better at Math and Science. Atleast that's what we were taught in Psychology in High School.
....
.

That's way too simple!

My wife is a physicist, my daughter is a physicist...

Take extremely good looking Harvard Professor of Theoretical Physics Lisa Randall, ...only few men are better ;-)

Just enter "Lisa Randall in Google images"...you will be surprised.

Bye Fridger


I am familiar with Lisa Randall. :D I saw her give a presentation on a PBS (Public Broadcasting System) program when her new book "Warped Passages" first came out... I found her thoughts on gravitational force crossing dimensional branes interesting, and how she described in our brane - gravity being a weak force. And yes, I find her very attractive... look here. :wink:

From a biological/physiological standpoint, men and women are very different... especially in brain chemistry. We're meant to be this way. It is only natural as well that our brains think differently on different levels. I've forgotten where I'd heard the comment, that women are very driven by their emotions... but it seems in truth, it is men who are more driven by their emotions.

:wink:

t00fri
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#13by t00fri » 08.05.2007, 08:14

Don. Edwards wrote:Speaking from another point of view, we did have a woman here a few years ago that was interested in being a part of the community, but her ideas were not seen as a good plan for Celestia, which in the long run was probably true. But she was treated by a certain member of this forum rather untactful and even her picture was paraded around, and I am pretty sure the guiltily party knows who they are. Not something most women care to have done on the open internet, even if her picture was from another site. She was treated quiet badly all in all and I am not at all surprised that more women have put the foot forward around here. Things like what happened to her have a way of spreading around in the female community at large and they stay away from sites that this kind of thing happens on.
...
Don. Edwards


Don,

this lady really was a special case and certainly NOT at all a "role model" for the lack of women in this forum.

The image that was shown here was from her ongoing /election campaign/ for a position in /public/ political life. So she was actually interested to have that image spread in public. Most users have only witnessed what happened "at the tip of the iceberg". Before /she/ brought that discussion into the public forum, there were about 10-20 long PM's exchanged (also with Chris), where she wanted to change almost all of Celestia without knowing about it's structure and being really qualified from an astrophysics point of view...That's not the kind of "collaborators" we dream of...

At the end of that "battle" I actually approached her again via PM and she went away "in peace".

We do actually have a number of registered women in this forum, but unfortunately, they rarely contribute in writing. We even have a young astrophysicist, whose name is known to me, since she did her PhD at the MPI in Munich before returning to the US.

Incidentally, I doubt that your statement about this forum being almost exclusively populated by singles is correct. In fact, the majority of the /active/ people I communicate with in this forum are married or have a partner of some kind. I could produce a /long/ list where I know for sure about the relations.

Bye Fridger
Last edited by t00fri on 08.05.2007, 08:29, edited 3 times in total.
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t00fri
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#14by t00fri » 08.05.2007, 08:22

julesstoop wrote:In my experience women in general just have a much better 'natural' feeling how to spend their time and thus diverse between different interests (professional, social, family, etc...) more easily.

Men on the other hand (again, generally spoken) are more easily carried away by (sometimes) seemingly futile endeavours and tend to forget other aspects of their lives more easily. (At least, that's why I need women as a counter force in my life.)


That view I share completely. But the question remains, why this forum tends to offer so little to women?


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ElChristou
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#15by ElChristou » 08.05.2007, 11:19

t00fri wrote:...But the question remains, why this forum tends to offer so little to women?


Fridger, the obvious reason is that the topics here do not offer a great interest for the female gender... Now if you want to know why, the best would be to ask women, so I doubt you will find a response here...

IMO, apart a few exeptions, women are much more receptive to reality than abstraction; let's say that in a way or another when a choice must be done they tend to use much more their feelings than their reason. I suppose this could explain lots of caracteristic situation marking the difference men/women...

Why? Perso, I don't have any response and I'm not so interested in the topic, I prefer the mistery! :o :wink:
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#16by Cham » 08.05.2007, 11:25

I never have read so much crap about women ! Come on, guys ! :x
"Well! I've often seen a cat without a grin", thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in all my life!"

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#17by t00fri » 08.05.2007, 11:28

Cham wrote:I never have read so much crap about women ! Come on, guys ! :x


You say it ;-) I agree...

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#18by rthorvald » 08.05.2007, 12:55

t00fri wrote:But the question remains, why this forum tends to offer so little to women?


Just a very small observation, but our forum here, with its complete lack of adornments, looks kind of nerdy.

Just google the words "women+forum", and you will instantly see what i mean. It may be that our forums simply signals "Here There Be Geeks: stay away"... :D

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#19by t00fri » 08.05.2007, 13:10

rthorvald wrote:
t00fri wrote:But the question remains, why this forum tends to offer so little to women?

Just a very small observation, but our forum here, with its complete lack of adornments, looks kind of nerdy.

Just google the words "women+forum", and you will instantly see what i mean. It may be that our forums simply signals "Here There Be Geeks: stay away"... :D

- rthorvald


Thats funny ;)

For example, I found this one:

Womens - Forum, Womens Health, Sex Dating
http://www.newomen.com/phpBB_14.html

Look at the decorations and the subjects ;-)

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#20by tech2000 » 08.05.2007, 13:24

Well, this forum could use a facelift, and even a little better presentation of the Celestia @ http://www.celestiaproject.net/celestia. A CMS with some news and do a better presentation of what Celestia really is able to do, and ofcourse a propper roadmap that is updated as features gets added.

It's a big job... :wink: ... but it MAY bring more females to the forum.

Bye, Anders


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