CeeBee wrote:I can relate to what Seldon says. I'm sysadmin at another forum and very often people ask questions about software they could easily find in the documentation or the help file. Some people repeatedly ask very basic questions.
Some are plain lazy, and that irritates me aswell. However, I always respond with a friendly but urgent remark like "it would be good to consult the documentation / browse the help file to make yourself familiar with the basic functions". I hope that with such a remark the intention "please do some work yourself, leave this forum to people with real problems" is clear yet friendly formulated. And the jerks won't be irritated and stressed: I'm the only one who will be when it comes to an online brawl.
On the other hand I'm continuously trying to help my 77 year old mom to deal with Internet, e-mail and an occasional program, and I know she enjoys the opportunities, but has absolutely no feeling whatsoever to find it out herself. Her questions are very basic as well, because her age and lack of experience prohibits her to grasp the concepts themselves.
In between there are all the other variations of people asking for help. I think Seldon's solution is a good one; if you read a question from a stupid lazy user, simply ignore. The result will be that they have to find out themselves in the end, and the tone on this forum will stay friendly and cooperative. All winners, no losers. Just my 2c.
All the best,
ElChristou wrote:Ceebee, Welcome! too bad you are stepping here in such circumstances but my issue here is definitively not a problem with newcomers.
Christophe, please allow me to say one thing, anyway:ElChristou wrote:Now if you really do believe such people may help, then, ok we do disagree and there is nothing to say anymore.ANDREA wrote:I'll try to help the bad memory of a lot of people here.....................Who doesn’t agree… well, the universe is so big, there is room for anybody, somewhere else, with all our sincere greetings!
I'm sure this is what 99.9% of Celestians are wishing.ANDREA wrote:But I'll be very unhappy of this, anyway.
Peace, men, please!
t00fri wrote:...CeeBee is a member of this forum since August 20, 2007. He wrote his first post today...
ElChristou wrote:To not spam the initial post, I translate my comment here.selden wrote:Mikej is in the right and you guys are in the wrong.
If you do not want to provide a helpful answer,
*DO NOT ANSWER A POST*
Sarcasm and snide remarks ARE NOT APPROPRIATE.
I've gotten sick of these attitudes and I'm going to have to take a hard line on this.
People who provide an inappropriate, sarcastic or intentionally unhelpful response will be banned for a period of time yet to be determined. It doesn't matter who you are.
Sorry Selden, despite I have a lot of consideration for your patience and peaceful attitude and despite I agree in the theoretical principle of an utopia where everybody is joyful and help each other, I disagree with your points.
But first of all it would be good to stop playing small. I know lots of people here are pissed of by Fridger's way of communication and I am one of the few others having a hard time with dumb and unconsidered questions from newbies. So basically as I started with sarcasms after Mikej post, let's say that your message and other posts after this one are targeting some precise users. Fridger, I and a few others. But Fridger is of course the target N°1. Please don't say it's not true.
Now, let's dig a bit the problem. Talking about attitude and others human factors are not important anymore, what is important are the facts.
We had, we have and we will always have unconsidered persons who will ask for stupid things. By stupid, I mean irrelevant/misplaced things. This is a fact, it's true an cannot be denied.
Just an example, Mikej who don't know what is an executable should not post. Now, a personal note: I take his post as: "I'm a lazy guy, I won't do any effort, give me the solution to my problem, it's an order". See what I mean? I take it as an aggression. Now if at least the guy was here since a few years an had contributed in something, I guess it would not be the same, but this kind of attitude from a less than let's say 50 posts user is an aggression to me.
Lot's of people here are blaming Fridger for all the bad in the community > old timers are quitting, newbies are slashed as flies, the guy is intolerable and always want to have the last word etc... Another fact that need a bit of digging.
Fact 1: Level of the board:
Or we do want a board with a certain level of discussion or we do not.
If we choose to keep a medium to high level of discussion, noob questions due to blatant laziness should been threaten without pity. That sounds harsh but this will turn away all lazy people who will never contribute in an effective way. This will avoid spamming the board with endless discussions about stuff unrelated to Celestia like teaching someone how to use his computer.
If we choose not to keep a descent level, quickly we can end with a chaotic board and then there is a risk of erosion of the active users. Imagine more than 50% of the board spammed with irrelevant/silly/stupid questions, why a serious user would want to stay in the middle of this?
Fact2: Fridger the all bad guy, tolerance zero:
Fridger vs newbies: we are in Fact1, I guess he have choosen to keep a descent level on the board.
Fridger vs old timers: we are here in front of the tricky problem. And again I think we should look at facts. Celestia is (eventually now, was...) Chris L + Fridger. The rest of the dev by other dev men are small things (maintenance, adjustments etc) in comparison to what these two guys are doing (whoever say it's not true, please talk now, I'm curious to see who you are).
Not only Fridger has been active at dev level but he also represent a barrier to keep us falling into easiness. He always ask for better stuff, better accuracy etc and so is one of the very few people who actually represent the ultimate end user, the guy who knows how work a computer, a software but also knows better than anybody else here the problem linked to astronomy and astrophysics. That again is a fact, not a fiction.
So when I read people making open criticism on details (way of expression etc) and forgetting the most important part, that makes me thing that these persons do not accept that someone may be far better (from a knowledge/intellectual point of view) than them. And that's not something that can be tolerated because else Fridger have to quit immediatly and then Celestia lose something very, but very important.
So I think that all is a question of respect. But some here are using this argument in a way that arrange their own views. Perso I think one must gain respect. Thinking that everybody should respect everybody equally without taking in consideration the valor of a person in relation to the task we are working on is pure utopia.
Now Selden, if you want at all cost real peace and harmony and want to ignore the above points, I think it's not with this kind of regulation that you will do something (or yes, eventually kill a bit more the community).
Just open a whole sub forum for newbies, and hide all the actual forums till they get 50/100 posts. They will have time to play, to ask, to do whatever, you will be able to teach them all they need without having people like me or Fridger on the back. (And eventually I'm sure you can even hide the newbie forum for people having more than 50/100 posts, this way peace is guaranteed...)
Now, perso I won't change a iota in my way to be until you prove me I'm plain wrong.
(And as I'm not anymore in a kindergarden a ban means I'll be out definitively)
lukr wrote:My second point is that you label other people as arrogant, but despite his many contributions, the same certainly applies to Fridger. And I don't care what qualifications he has. Lately, you seem to have gone the same way, which is regretful.
mikej wrote:I suppose the answer you [edit: abramson] gave works for YOU!
You said to " replace its executable" as there was a problem. What does this mean? Please be specific.
Please, either release a new version or teach us how to use what you are all talking about
And I don't care what qualifications he has.
t00fri wrote:Don't forget this forum is NOT meant to be a CALLCENTER...
selden wrote:t00fri wrote:Don't forget this forum is NOT meant to be a CALLCENTER...
The new forum Celestia Help is intended to be the equivalent of a callcenter.
t00fri wrote:...I suppose he will be angry upon reading your judgement.
Can Andorians like me go some place to unload anger and frustration? Not that I have much but just in case? We are temperamental after all.t00fri wrote:selden wrote:t00fri wrote:Don't forget this forum is NOT meant to be a CALLCENTER...
The new forum Celestia Help is intended to be the equivalent of a callcenter.
Yes, I am very happy with this new forum. Except it should have been installed YEARS ago!
I was actually referring to the frequent side effects of callcenters (costing high phone charges), where people typically unload their anger and frustration, forgetting entirely about politeness. Again, perhaps in the US, the "home of politeness", people even remain charming when consulting american call centers .
Another pecularity of callcenters is that the callers usually CANNOT be banned by a moderator . Indeed, the operators loose their job, if they show the slightest hint of an emotional reaction to the callers' nastiness... So they must be VERY "mature"
t00fri wrote:mikej wrote:I suppose the answer you [edit: abramson] gave works for YOU!
Spaceman Spiff wrote:P.s., what is that excellent topic "(Map Projections)" (http://www.celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13635) doing in 'Purgatory'? Shouldn't it go in 'Celestia Textures'?
EXCEPTIONALLY, I did not realize that this was pure sarcasm of my French copain and felt I should express my honest opinion about this incredible situation (NO sarcasm, NO snide whatsoever!)ElChristou wrote:Chuft, you're a king (as always), but seems it would be better beginning by the basis: what is a computer, what means "binary","hardware", "software", "operating system","executable" etc...
Fridger wrote:I think CC did a great job here.
Why should he further reduce his explanations to the level of "analphabets"!? We are living in "modern times", where a VERY basic knowledge of computers is as much a signature of basic education as is to know who happens to be the President of the UnitedStates (Bush? ) etc.
Seriously, I have little understanding for some people's snobbism to coquette with their total ignorance of computers...Which surely is not to imply that I expect everyone to be a computer buff...
Indeed, but you see, we next get this other crowd of people who have never made a sensible contribution since 4-5 years and NOW sense, their big moment of being judges has come:I'd expect Selden isn't going to apologise, and I see Fridger and Christophe still post.
Yes fortunately not everything was in vain... Christophe is still totally upset and has asked ChrisL to eliminate him entirely from here. It's a scandal... I have decided to go on for a while (after some nice conversations with ChrisL before he boarded his plane today for Amsterdam.)Anyway, I note the 'Banned Users' topic has gone now, and measures are being taken to list basic help and FAQs more prominently. Can people accept Selden had a wobbly, but has calmed down now? Is there any reason why things can't go back to the way they were?
The project itself is unrelated to Celestia hence => Purgatory. But the subject is important, yet too complex for most. For such things I rather recommend our own site (CelestialMatters). There we talk endlessly about ISIS3, reprojections and the like...P.s., what is that excellent topic "(Map Projections)" (http://www.celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13635) doing in 'Purgatory'? Shouldn't it go in 'Celestia Textures'?
selden wrote:Spaceman Spiff wrote:P.s., what is that excellent topic "(Map Projections)" (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13635) doing in 'Purgatory'? Shouldn't it go in 'Celestia Textures'?
It has now been moved.
Reiko wrote:Can Andorians like me go some place to unload anger and frustration? Not that I have much but just in case? We are temperamental after all.
Selden wrote: objectionable statement deleted
Selden wrote: Don, while I appreciate your feelings, some of your comments are, to put it bluntly, rude, and could be written much less antagonistically. Please make appropriate changes.I would not like to have to apply sanctions.
p.s. I have edited this post to remove one inappropriate inclusion.
Please reread the guidelines, especially item #5 under the section "Please do not..."
p.p.s. The major objectionable statement has been deleted.
Fridger wrote:After Selden edited/corrected Don.Edwards mail, I have also removed here the part referring to Don's incorrect statements
Users browsing this forum: 2 guests