Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

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t00fri
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#301by t00fri » 24.08.2007, 21:24

glcanon wrote:
Remember that saying, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."



This saying seems to be unknown over here in "Old Europe"....It neither fits to Swiss watches nor to German cars ;-)

It also seems to exhibit a rather busyness oriented spirit!
Like: "man, you will be loosing money if you attempt to do things better than 'good' ". Right?

In Celestia we are NOT talking about money! We have all time of this world. Our lead software engineer just returned from a 2 months break for example ;-)

So all in all we take things VERY relaxed these days. BUT... yes we try to be good at it ;-) VERY good ...

Bye Fridger
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#302by selden » 24.08.2007, 23:25

Fridger,

Actually that's a translation from the writings of Voltaire.

His original Italian version is "Il meglio ?? l'inimico del bene", Dictionnaire philosophique (1770 ed.)

and his later French version is "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien", La B?©gueule, l. 2 (1772)
Selden

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#303by ElChristou » 24.08.2007, 23:44

selden wrote:Fridger,

Actually that's a translation from the writings of Voltaire.

His original Italian version is "Il meglio ?? l'inimico del bene", Dictionnaire philosophique (1770 ed.)

and his later French version is "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien", La B?©gueule, l. 2 (1772)


Whouaw, what a culture Selden! :wink:
I knew the expression but not it was from Voltaire... ...shame on me... :oops:
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#304by t00fri » 24.08.2007, 23:51

selden wrote:Fridger,

Actually that's a translation from the writings of Voltaire.

His original Italian version is "Il meglio ?? l'inimico del bene", Dictionnaire philosophique (1770 ed.)

and his later French version is "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien", La B?©gueule, l. 2 (1772)


Good you know these references by heart ;-)

Bye Fridger
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#305by ElChristou » 24.08.2007, 23:58

selden wrote:...and his later French version is "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien", La B?©gueule, l. 2 (1772)


So in English it should be "The better is the enemy of the good", no?

(Oops, this is a bit off topic!)
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#306by ANDREA » 25.08.2007, 00:02

glcanon wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing some brilliant work, very nice detail. But I'd hate for someone to get so bogged down in detail that they get tired of this project and don't finish (which I've done myself when I got too bogged down on detail & accuracy).
Remember that saying, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."

Glcanon, we are very happy you gave us this pearl of wisdom, dunno what we could do without it! :lol:
BTW, where the Hell from did you find that we are ?€?bogged down?€
Core 2 Quad Q6600 G0 3.8 GHz- 8 GB DDR2
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8800 GTX 768MB- 6xSATA II, total 7.5 TB-260.89- Celestia 1.6.1
Celestia1.4.1_patch3- Vincent's LUA Edu Tools 1.2

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#307by Fenerit » 25.08.2007, 02:46

ANDREA wrote:With the only exception of the initial DM and LM debris spread all around (but at engine start only, with LM still on DM), there is almost no evidence of flames by the engines during take-off and initial flight.
I think that this solves any doubt on the matter. :wink:
Bye

Andrea :D



A spring engine? :lol:
Never at rest.
Massimo

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#308by glcanon » 25.08.2007, 05:33

Yes I suppose I have some catching up to do on old forum posts. But I have no law degree nor product, so not soliciting for clients nor advertising sales.

Surely Herr Fridger jokes with me that Voltaire's mindset was of Western origin and unfamiliar to the Old World of Europe and Celestia's developers. I took the inference that such qt fm a Westerner is symbolic of Western mentality where perfect is the enemy of the profit margin, (methinks he alludes to Micro$oft) That's not what I meant. But the remark about German autos.. Come now, is not Chris Laurel a Seattle, WA native?

I'm not a National Sozialistische member, but I humbly affirm that I own a German sedan and am 50% German stock. But if there was ever an auto which provided an argument to "do it right the first time" it is the VW Passat. The Passat Limousine, as it was called in Old Europe when I purchased it, was rushed out to the public before the wiring issues were ever resolved. So yes I agree, if something's worth doing it's worth doing right.

Actually, when I thought of the Voltaire quote I was thinking of Admiral Gorshkov's 1960's useage. The perfect being the enemy of the good. Similarly, the Soviet's N1 booster had 30 rocket engines on the first stage, hugely imperfect. But they didn't have time to seek perfection, a race was on. The Saturn V booster wasn't perfect either, but it was better than good in my book.

I think Celestia is an amazing piece software. I would like to know more about its history & development. I'll keep looking for its history; it would be neat to read brief bios of all you fellows working on it; I imagine you have a very diverse background.

I don't call Celestia a game, nor Starry Nights, RedShift, Dance of the Planets, nor DeepSky a game. Too much respect to do so. But neither is an Apollo sim a game. Guess it depends on how you personally define "game." I'm not the creator nor developer of EL3D, but to call it a game with "tricks" is silly. Take the high road. I view both types of software as being focused on realism & accuracy, as much is attainable with PCs, anyway.

There's been 8+ years of research and Beta testing & technical discussions about the smallest minutia of the Apollo 11 landing on the EL3D forums. If the subject (Apollo or Apollo 11) is of any interest to anyone here, don't discount the many years of content of the forum posters there, some of whom worked on the Apollo program and could walk circles around me, especially Frank O'Brien, who knows everything Apollo. When I asked Ron Monsen if he needed anything back in 2000, he suggested good Apollo landing site data. Who better to put him in touch with than Dr. Paul Spudis of the Lunar & Planetary Institute (where I attended my monthly astronomy meetings).

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/abspudis.html

Many regard Paul as the world's leading living expert on lunar geology. Since he was also Deputy Director of the Clementine Team, he provided Ron with detail mesh & data of the Apollo landing sites. Forums can provide such introductions.

To suggest any mention of other software or websites (especially in rgds Apollo) is not welcome nor appreciated seems to be shooting oneself in the foot. Am I the only person here who ever dreamt of landing on the Moon? I get enjoyment from simply looking at Hennie Frik's model of the Eagle as it descends over the lunar regolith. A magnificent virtual model, as I'm sure yours will be. Peace out.

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#309by ElChristou » 25.08.2007, 12:57

Glcanon, let's stop all this useless blabla, Celestia is not about Apollo, this thread is just about and addon, you are welcome if you want to help. If you want to talk about some other soft, then you are not in the good place.

I peek into the site of your favorite soft and indeed there is nothing to compare.
Our models will be just far better, it's all...
(...I'm kidding of course!)

Ok more seriously, if you want to help, just ask the author of the Apollo 11 terrain, if he would be ok to share his topo with us. That's would be useful!
(from the shots, the topo in this soft seems pretty nice...)
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#310by selden » 25.08.2007, 13:36

Chris, et al,

Have you considered investing in some of the books describing the details of the Apollo 11 mission?

In particular, Apogee Books has published several volumes which include copies of much of the official documentation as well as CDs.
Selden

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#311by ElChristou » 25.08.2007, 13:55

selden wrote:Chris, et al,

Have you considered investing in some of the books describing the details of the Apollo 11 mission?

In particular, Apogee Books has published several volumes which include copies of much of the official documentation as well as CDs.


Perso, I'm not inclined in buying something because finally all the data is over-there, question of digging...
A few days ago, Andrea was also ready to buy some docs, but really me must face the true nature of this addon:

- The models are not highres (ok highres compared to previous ones, but in reality they are medres). So from the modeling point of view, I don't need ALL the docs and blueprints, just some specific points, and actually we are going quite well.

- As we still are on holidays time, from my side, no news from Linuxm@n. So meanwhile we cannot have some preliminary test of the ssc and xyz, it's a bit soon to tell what data is missing...

For the rest it's also too soon to say something.
I'm confident in Runar's experience to merge the terrain model with a VT, now for the topo, I haven't think much in how to do it. What I fear is to not find topo data, in this case perso I don't have the skills to extract the topo from photos... We will see...
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#312by ANDREA » 25.08.2007, 14:06

selden wrote:Chris, et al,Have you considered investing in some of the books describing the details of the Apollo 11 mission? In particular, Apogee Books has published several volumes which include copies of much of the official documentation as well as CDs.

Yes Selden, we did it, bur after a thorough research we found that almost all what was in such volumes was already available in the web, even if in a "rougher" way. 8O
I mean that the original NASA publications are normally scans of photocopies of the original documents, with one exception (fortunately available in the Web, it?€™s the "Final Apollo 11 Flight Plan (Re-formatted by Thomas Schwagmeier) AS-506, CSM-107/LM-5- April 15, 1969- Prepared by Flight Planning Branch- Flight Crew Support Division" that you can find here: http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11flt ... format.pdf).
For this reason most of times their quality is poor to very poor, so much that the images and drawings are in many cases unusable. :cry:
Fortunately a lot of images are available from a number of fonts (even if, obviously, most of then are from NASA itself), so we had the possibility to compensate with good images what was unusable from documents.
Obviously something new can be found in the plethora of books on the subject, but only at very high prices ( a set of blueprints, moreover not well documenting their source, costs US $ 60.00 plus postage!). :evil:
So, being this not a commercial venture, we decided to use what we had available, but in the usual (almost usual?) Celestia way in doing this:
if we had doubts on something (information or image), that was not used for the project.
Thank you Selden, for giving us the possibility to explain our philosophy with some more details. :wink:
Bye

Andrea :D
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#313by ElChristou » 04.09.2007, 13:05

Hello everybody,

After the opening of CM's forum, the Apollo reconstitution will continue there; I will still post for time to time some notes here till release of the addon.

You can now follow this thread here:

http://www.forum.celestialmatters.org/viewtopic.php?t=27
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#314by ElChristou » 28.09.2007, 14:19

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MiR
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Re: Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

#315by MiR » 14.10.2010, 12:09

h-Hi......?

Is still anybody here...?
Something strange for me... to walk reading in this big thread...
With all its enthusiasm, diligence and sweat...
Like a lonely walk through a big, big factory...
Where the unpayed workers didn't came back after their pause...
just an old ancient radio - right there in the untidy corner - sounds with a rusty voice:

"...on my supersonic rocket ship
nobody has to be hip
nobody needs to be out of sight
nobody's gonna travel second class
there'll be equality
and no suppression of minorities
well alright..."

And I'm thinking by myself - while I'm passing the fantastic models, which are standing like monuments in this giant but empty virtual factory hall - "what a great idea, what a great cooperation and such a huge effort..."

But where are the artists gone...? where are they now...? Oh, I'm really sure they still see me, just right now, through those big milky factory windows while I'm walking silently over the dust of time... still searching for an happy end...

but the links here doesn't work and... I don't know...?

Regards
Michael

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Re: Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

#316by Fenerit » 14.10.2010, 17:11

Seem that this "mission reconstruction" be in the fashion of the "man on the Moon"'s mistery. The video links relevant to the "spring engine" have been brokens. The modules' reproductions, with such system of lift off, were packed within the fresh chips in the early ' 70s. Usually kids were playing with it by changing the spring, in order to engage races amongst who sent the module more higher, in the air. I think the issues aren't relevants neither to the Elchristou models (beautiful indeed, imho), nor to the lack of interest, but is unclear why this project has been aborted. :roll:
Never at rest.
Massimo

t00fri
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Re: Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

#317by t00fri » 14.10.2010, 19:29

Fenerit wrote:...
but is unclear why this project has been aborted. :roll:

Because Christophe aka ElChristou needed to focus his full attention on his business after the financial crisis hit. Analogously with Runar aka rthorvald (see e.g. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13642).

That's too bad also for the life at CelestialMatters, but professional issues do have priority.

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Re: Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

#318by Fenerit » 14.10.2010, 21:51

Thats are good reasons, then.
Never at rest.
Massimo

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Re: Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

#319by MiR » 15.10.2010, 06:45

Fridger, thanks for this explanation. Like you, they are "big parts" (VIP's) of Celestia. And, of course, for the community as well.

I wish them Good Luck for the future in every matters...

Regards
Michael


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