CELESTIA IN THE FUTURE

Description: The place to discuss creating, porting and modifying Celestia's source code.

john71
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#21by john71 » 24.07.2017, 10:17

As I can see there are these options on the table in my opinion:

1.) crowdsourcing/crowdfunding
2.) cooperation with celestia.Sci (they may help with their knowledge even if they are not contributing directly)
3.) a little bit more professional recruiting of volunteer programmers (better project promotion).

I think you need:

a.) a new website, with every new bit of software update, information and help
b.) you should summarise the vast knowledge of this forum, because it is too big and too chaotic
c.) you need Facebook or other social media presence
d.) you should find new programmers outside of the Celestia community
e.) more sophisticated global and international communication and presentation.

FarGetaNik M
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#22by FarGetaNik » 24.07.2017, 12:48

john71 wrote:1.) crowdsourcing/crowdfunding

We would need a clear schedule for that. Good idea, but who would get that money? The programmers we don't have many at all?

john71 wrote:2.) cooperation with celestia.Sci (they may help with their knowledge even if they are not contributing directly)

I don't have the feeling that anyone from Celestia.sci is volunteering to help us out. Anything from Celestia.sci is behind a copyright wall we cannot access with an open source project.

john71 wrote:3.) a little bit more professional recruiting of volunteer programmers (better project promotion).
a.) a new website, with every new bit of software update, information and help
d.) you should find new programmers outside of the Celestia community

That would go hand in hand. Desperately needed.

john71 wrote:b.) you should summarise the vast knowledge of this forum, because it is too big and too chaotic

Also a high priority imo. The Celestia wikibooks are a good start, but they need to be updated. Personally I think a central place for all addons and related programs is needed, since the motherlode is loosing momentum. Because of the 8-10 MB upload limit for http clients I hesitate to uload anything big on there too.

John Van Vliet
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#23by John Van Vliet » 25.07.2017, 01:08

right now my working copy in my dev folder can build using QT 5.6 using "celestia.pro" ( Qt Creator or qmake)

i have yet to rebuild the auto tools macros ( that can be a pain in the rear ) so i am waiting until i install the new opensuse ,the upgrade in a day or two .

still uses lua 5.1 however
-- for this i might just make a static lib and include it

it looks like 5.2 will break the lua tools
-- those will need updating to 5.2

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#24by K.A.V » 28.07.2017, 15:29

FarGetaNik wrote:We would need a clear schedule for that. Good idea, but who would get that money? The programmers we don't have many at all?
Why schedule? All who have the opportunity, make a cash contribution when they can.
For this we need some kind of platform. We will collect a sufficient amount, then hire a freelancer and set him tasks. He performs them, we pay with the collected funds.
Approximately so I see сrowdfunding.

Crowdsourcing is possible? Is there a platform for this? Is it really possible to find people there free of charge?

FarGetaNik M
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#25by FarGetaNik » 28.07.2017, 16:59

If it's enough for hiring freelancers that could work. I'm sure there are several platforms for that. I don't know which one might work for us.

john71
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#26by john71 » 28.07.2017, 17:14

Crowdsourcing in my opinion is possible, if there are repetitive low level programming tasks which can be completed potentially by an ordinary online volunteer...

Janus
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#27by Janus » 30.07.2017, 07:54

I was very glad to see the x64 version for windows.

Getting 64 bit on windows is something I have been tinkering with for a while, and have not succeeded at on my own.
I am also not a real C/C++ programmer, so I have been floundering.
So seeing that someone had achieved what I had not, I grabbed it and started to tinker.

Sadly, there are limitations to go with the achievements.

Eigen is updated, great, that needed to happen.
However, Eigen no longer compiles with the Vs2008, Vs2010, or Vs2012 editions.
Trying literally crashes the compiler, though visual studio itself continues to run.

The best I have been able to get working is Vs2013, which I recently got use of from a customer via a loaned system to use for my work for them.
Sadly, however needed that change was, it also means a lot of people with older setups will not be able to compile it.

There are other changes as well, usage of snprintf which required a macro to get past.
I have no idea why it was used, the print system was working fine the way it was.
Not saying there isn't a good reason, just that I do not know it, and found it annoying to work around.

On a clean system I had a lot of trouble getting it to compile.
Once I had over come them, including fixing which and where windows headers were included.
I discovered all of the libraries with it had been recompiled with Vs2015, which I am fixing as I have time.
I am hoping to find the problems with Eigen, and a way around them to be able to use an older compiler again.

My current goal is to get it compiling on Vs2013, and running, two different problems.
Before anyone says just use Vs2015 community, I can't, I work with other people's IP, so I have to stay secure.
Little of my work is in C/C++, and I wish it was less, though I have no hope of keeping it that way, hence working on projects like this for practice.
Vs2015 has telemetry in VS itself, which I can not have on my system, or even on my lan.
One of the same reasons I will never use W10, that and it is a steaming pile of four letter words that have no business here.

Debating what the future of Celestia is, means in part deciding or figuring out what it is going to be used for.
I recently resurrected an old project of mine and updated it for a friend.

It is a solar system tour showing all the planets, designed for a dvd player.
The tour was done using celestia, recording in real time.
I had to fix the time base system because the script clock is unrelated to celestia's simulation clock.
Time drifted at the ratio of FPS of recording vs FPS of the display.
So I patched in a variable delay to keep the clocks in sync, hard to do without the sourcecode.
You can select each planet, or play the whole thing.
It is isn't fancy, and is a work in progress, but represents one use of celestia.

Another is I am helping someone make a 3d map of the honor harrington universe.
An individual had me make a map of the travels of characters in some books.
{I tweaked the astersims file to make a wire frame display for image capture.}
I have a kinect motion system I rigged as a demo for a customer to control celestia with hand movements.
Someone recently contacted me about making a VR version of celestia by giving it two display windows set a tiny bit apart

So the question as I see it, is what is celestia?
What are the goals?
I do not mean things like improving star display.
I mean, what is it going to be used for?

Until those are answered however, I still have goals.

I am working on 32/64 bit compiling on windows with Vs2013.
I am also working 32/64 bit on QT {5.x}, using Mingw & Vs both if I can.

I will post to the forum when I succeed.

Janus.

P.S. Does anyone know how to make the libjpeg, libpng, and the other libs be compiled with the rest, instead of just being static libraries?

selden
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#28by selden » 30.07.2017, 13:09

Will you be able to make your 3D Honor Harrington addon public?

I hope you're aware that Weber has always worked off a 2D map, much to the chagrin of his fans. That's one of the reasons I didn't bother to expand my own map Addon, which is available at https://www.classe.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/

In the "what it's worth" department:

The version called "Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB" (Long Term Servicing Branch) has or can be easily modified to strip out all of the telemetry, Edge, Cortana, etc. That's the version that we're starting to test in the research lab where I work. (I'm the first guinea pig.)

Although getting the LTSB version supposedly requires that your institution have a Volume License agreement, it's also available through a new $7 per month subscription program or free for a 90 day evaluation. See https://www.howtogeek.com/273824/windows-10-without-the-cruft-windows-10-ltsb-explained/

While you might be reluctant to use Win10 for development, it's probably appropriate to make sure your software runs under Win10. Running it an isolated VM probably would meet your constraints.
Selden

john71
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#29by john71 » 30.07.2017, 13:22

Janus wrote:
So the question as I see it, is what is celestia?
What are the goals?
I do not mean things like improving star display.
I mean, what is it going to be used for?

I think Celestia is the LibreOffice of 3D visual astronomy (or celestial objects) modelling.

It is a celestial world building and viewing tool, or perhaps a visual research and demonstration tool to create, modify and view any type of celestial object (real or fictional).

It is also the most programmable celestial world building tool, so it is a content maker.

Janus
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#30by Janus » 30.07.2017, 16:32

@seldon

Sadly, the harrington stuff belongs to someone else.
As far as I know, it is a personal thing.
I am being paid in hardware and software for my part.

As for W10 E LTSB, it doesn't really matter.
{You should also delve into it further as a security researcher would.
I did as part of my research and determined that W10 can not be trusted by structure or design.
Phoning home is not an API it has, it is part of the structure.
The structure of W10 is cloud centric, for the creation of a unified experience that you lease from M$.
Its design goals are inimical to me, I own my computer, I do not lease the right to run it.
The closest parallel is google's chrome, which natively stores nothing local without some mods.
Microsoft's goal is to have you store your entire profile with them, then sign into on whatever computer you happen to be using.}

For me personally, even if I could trust it, W10 is an unusable disaster.
Virtually everything I use to get around or use a computer has been stripped away.
To my eyes it is an appliance front end, not a computer OS.
Though calling it an advertising platform with strong branding would be accurate as well.

I am currently using W7, and was barely able to mod it into usability.
Classic shell, 7+ taskbar tweaker, network activity indicator, explorer++, voidtools everything.
Numerous tweaks to get rid of garbage builtins like zip/cab/homegroup etc.
I even managed to recreate the quicklaunch using a folder on the desktop.
The desktop I use is now about 85-90% XP like, whereas I prefer the Win2K one.
I never use the user profile for anything, and install most of my programs to not use it all if I can.{portable application format [paf] is your friend.}
I also never install anything that doesn't integrate with the OS on C, that is reserved for disposable stuff, so when windows barfs, nothing important is lost.

I dislike anything that comes between me and my work, which everything in windows since Vista is designed to.
I know I work differently than most, but if it doesn't work for you, don't use it.
The simplest way I can put it is like this.

If I go to the middle of my desktop and right click, the context menu should bring up everything to do with the desktop.
Through Xp, this is the case on windows.
Starting in Vista, they broke this, and apparently did so by design.
Resolution, display, color depth, refresh rate, screen saver, power saver, fonts, themes, all are scattered the same way they are in linux.

I work with many different graphics formats, I have to know jpg, from png, from tif, from gif, from ...
The same goes for mp3, snd, wav ...
Or for ttf, fnt, fon ...
Or beter yet, avi, mp4, mkv, iso, vob, ts ...
And the list goes from there.
With the entire interface used for showing the file extension removed, using the built-in explorer is hence impossible.
It requires a separate handler for each file extension to show exact type, not just which programs opens it by default, which is insanity.
I need to know not only what a thing is, but which format it is in, simply telling me the default editor is pointless.
I use multiple graphic editors, and sound editors, and video editors.
Some packages prefer graphics in different formats, same with sound, or ... the list goes on.
I have to know one from another, which the UI in Vista and later removes.
I also hate what it did to control panel, the navigation tree, and lots more.

As for Linux, it was never meant to be a desktop gui, and never will be a mainstream one.
It has many of the same issues as vista and later, for reasons I do not understand.
I had thought that detail people would want access to details, but they hide them instead.
Almost none of the gui tools in it are really gui, just text front ends, which makes sense from the do not reinvent the wheel approach.
It is almost perfect for servers, but that is where it does best.
Do not think I object to Linux, I do not, I use it in VM's a lot, sometimes daily, and it does a great job.

Mac's on the other hand, I simply do not like.
I own my own computer that I built, not the mac way.
For those that do like them, enjoy, good luck, have fun.
Use what works for you.

I am waiting on ReactOS to get into beta.
It has the underpinnings to support the post XP stuff, while maintaining a real desktop.

As for making sure my stuff runs under W10, I simply do not care.
It is not a real operating system to me, it does not matter.
This is open source, if someone cares enough to fix it, that is great.
Let them, I have no objection to it running on W10, I simply do not care.


@john71

Calling celestia the libreoffice of 3D visual astronomy is accurate I think.
While others have prettier graphics, they are single purpose, or view from the ground.
Celestia is the most adaptable piece of astronomyware I know of.

I also agree, it is a content maker.
I have used it that way myself on more than one occasion.
In addition to the solar system tour on a DVD I mentioned, I also helped a neighbor make a flyby video of Venus and Mercury for a class.
And a saturn polar orbit demo for a friend.

I mean seriously, how many programs out there will let you mark pairs of stars that are within one parsec of each other.
I had to tweak celestia to add distance commands to do it, and have some more to add later, but I could.
Something I did out of curiosity, it took quite a while to run, and you may be surprised at how many their are.

The question then becomes, how can it be made better for creation of content?


Janus.

john71
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#31by john71 » 30.07.2017, 17:15

The question then becomes, how can it be made better for creation of content?

Well I think maybe these functions could help:

1.) real time editing with built-in editor
2.) real time and easier script writing and execution
3.) easier and glitch-free picture and movie making
4.) easy creation of self-executing demo files
5.) universal *.cel file type, which stores every form of content, like an *.odt (ODF) file
6.) built-in easier import of 3d files and textures (not only 3ds and cmod)
7.) automatic dds and cmod conversion from imported texture and model files
8.) built-in content sharing function (like posting on Facebook or having some kind of torrent engine in it).

Janus
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#32by Janus » 30.07.2017, 18:01

The question then becomes, how can it be made better for creation of content?

Well I think maybe these functions could help:

1.) real time editing with build-in editor
2.) real time and easier script writing and execution
3.) easier and glitch-free picture and movie making
4.) easy creation of self-executing demo files
5.) universal *.cel file type, which stores every form of content, like an *.odt file
6.) built-in easier import of 3d files and textures (not only 3ds and cmod)
7.) automatic dds and cmod conversion from imported texture and model files
8.) built-in content sharing function (like posting on Facebook or having some kind of torrent engine in it).

Questions for understanding and clarity.

1: Editing of what?

2: I think you mean integrating a script editor.
If so, is there a way to call celestia with a script in the commandline?
If there is, then we can simply use the compile function of notepad++ to achieve the same thing.
With it, you can edit a script, then call celestia to 'compile it'.

3: I did the first step, which is syncing the delay/wait commands to the RTC with delays.
Instead, they need to sync to frames directly, with the frame renderer setting the time the script engine uses.
This would allow for above or below realtime recordings to be used.
As long as we can make individual calls for each frame that is.

4: A portable format with an internal call to run a script just like the compiling above would achieve that.
PAF is the format I am referring to.

5: Not sure what you mean by that?

6,7: I see celestia as a renderer, though having a support ecosystem of tools would be great.
As above, designed so that they use the same internal code as celestia, and can call it in direct script mode.

8: Something I would remove from my version.
While I have no issue with people using those places, I do not use software designed to integrate with them.
There is no chance I will ever use or post to any of them.
If enough people want that, I won't even try to stop it, but maintain an easy way to compile without it, or some of us will fork.

Janus.

P.S. Does anyone know how to get quoting working on here?

FarGetaNik M
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#33by FarGetaNik » 30.07.2017, 18:55

Janus wrote:P.S. Does anyone know how to get quoting working on here?

Highlight the text you want to quote in the original post and click on the " button next to the author's name.

john71 wrote:1.) real time editing with built-in editor
2.) real time and easier script writing and execution
3.) easier and glitch-free picture and movie making
4.) easy creation of self-executing demo files
5.) universal *.cel file type, which stores every form of content, like an *.odt (ODF) file
6.) built-in easier import of 3d files and textures (not only 3ds and cmod)
7.) automatic dds and cmod conversion from imported texture and model files
8.) built-in content sharing function (like posting on Facebook or having some kind of torrent engine in it).

1) as I already stated, in-program editing of data files (ssc, stc...) would save so much time working on content. Space Engine has a similar feature. I understand it is difficult to implement, but maybe we can have a menu option to reload any data files that were edited since startup?

5) Space Engine has universal .sc files for all catalogues and I think that is much more handy, you can put a star together with its planets in one file and you won't have to worry that some ssc features don't exist in stc or dsc files. Do you mean that?

7) I don't think dds is always the best joice. It sometimes even leads to glitches. I prefer png for easy-to-compress textures or ones that need to load fast and jpg for textures I need to save disc space.

john71
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#34by john71 » 30.07.2017, 19:16

Janus wrote:
Questions for understanding and clarity.

1: Editing of what?

Editing of content files, like ssc stc dsc, real time, and seeing the results instantly.

2: I think you mean integrating a script editor.
If so, is there a way to call celestia with a script in the commandline?
If there is, then we can simply use the compile function of notepad++ to achieve the same thing.
With it, you can edit a script, then call celestia to 'compile it'.

I think the real "magic" would be content editing in Celestia "on the fly", within the program.

Creating a new planet in a few steps, editing it's properties real time.

3: I did the first step, which is syncing the delay/wait commands to the RTC with delays.
Instead, they need to sync to frames directly, with the frame renderer setting the time the script engine uses.
This would allow for above or below realtime recordings to be used.
As long as we can make individual calls for each frame that is.

That's great!

5: Not sure what you mean by that?

I mean all data used in stc, dsc, cel etc. files should be in one "universal" container file, like scripts, models, textures etc..

8: Something I would remove from my version.
While I have no issue with people using those places, I do not use software designed to integrate with them.
There is no chance I will ever use or post to any of them.
If enough people want that, I won't even try to stop it, but maintain an easy way to compile without it, or some of us will fork.

It is not for me either, but for "marketing" reasons it would be useful in my opinion.

P.S. Does anyone know how to get quoting working on here?

Sorry, I don't. :(

Added after 5 minutes 6 seconds:
FarGetaNik wrote:7) I don't think dds is always the best joice. It sometimes even leads to glitches. I prefer png for easy-to-compress textures or ones that need to load fast and jpg for textures I need to save disc space.

I stopped using 8k png normalmap files and the results are staggering (for me anyway). Much lower memory use (I need 1GB less RAM!!!) and no crashes.

Janus
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#35by Janus » 30.07.2017, 20:16

john71 wrote:Janus wrote:
Questions for understanding and clarity.

1: Editing of what?
Editing of content files, like ssc stc dsc, real time, and seeing the results instantly.

2: I think you mean integrating a script editor.
If so, is there a way to call celestia with a script in the commandline?
If there is, then we can simply use the compile function of notepad++ to achieve the same thing.
With it, you can edit a script, then call celestia to 'compile it'.

I think the real "magic" would be content editing in Celestia "on the fly", within the program.
Creating a new planet in a few steps, editing it's properties real time.

3: I did the first step, which is syncing the delay/wait commands to the RTC with delays.
Instead, they need to sync to frames directly, with the frame renderer setting the time the script engine uses.
This would allow for above or below realtime recordings to be used.
As long as we can make individual calls for each frame that is.

That's great!

5: Not sure what you mean by that?
I mean all data used in stc, dsc, cel etc. files should be in one "universal" container file, like scripts, models, textures etc..

8: Something I would remove from my version.
While I have no issue with people using those places, I do not use software designed to integrate with them.
There is no chance I will ever use or post to any of them.
If enough people want that, I won't even try to stop it, but maintain an easy way to compile without it, or some of us will fork.

It is not for me either, but for "marketing" reasons it would be useful in my opinion.

1&2: The first step is be sure that whatever you are using has a proper syntax checker for the data file type.
Probably the easiest way to do that to begin with is to add a reinitialize data function to the file menu.
Or if you want the menu left alone, add a script function to reload data, and have a script you can call.
Editing in memory is easy, however, then saving from memory it is a pain, celestia simply does not have support for that.

That is the same reason I modified the database on my personal version to keep polar coordinates.
That way each star has its own set of polar and rectangular coordinates.
Given the structure of celestia, forcing a reload from a modified source file is the best way to go, since it requires the smallest change.

Unless you want to try to put scite or something like it into celestia, which has syntax checking.
Even just forcing a self reload would be a help in script development.
My solar system tour took a long time to develop because I had to relaunch celestia for every single test.
Lua/Celx insistence on case sensitive everything drives me just as batty as C/C++ does, with less syntax checking.

5: Using 'cel' files as containers sounds great.
However, in order to prevent macro expansion issues, I suggest they not be allowed to store one inside another, and if found, are ignored.
I would also suggest that they represent a single solar system apiece.

That would put ours in one, sol.cel for example.
tauceti.cel for another.
CN_Leonis.cel or wolf359.cel, depending on whether you wanted real data, or a star trek addon.

You get the idea, that way the star name or designation is also the same as any relevant solar system data.
This enables you to edit solar system data on the fly, all you have to do is go to another star, and back, and your new data is loaded.
Have json files inside that list planets, asteroids, comets, etc, for fast reference, and child listings. (From celx/C++ data types.)

This encapsulates that data into smaller chunks, allowing rapid simple data lookup.
Then if needed, it can be loaded, and unloaded again.
Since there is no need to have more than one solar system active at one time, memory is conserved, allowing bigger textures.
Since zip files can be mapped, changing solar systems is as simple as remapping a pointer and reinitializing the solar system class/object.

8: The trade off for marketing is simply not worth it.
The code used for such places is pervasive, and not always completely open.
Also, their APIs change, and they expect integrated things to update as well.

If you want visibility, do a lot of projects like my dvd tour, and put them out there.
I will be putting my tour up and asking for feedback later today.
Perhaps that will inspire others to do demos of their own.

Janus.

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#36by selden » 30.07.2017, 20:23

Janus,

From what you write, it seems to me that you might be happier using Linux. Many Windows binaries can run under Linux by using Wine or its commercial equivalent, Crossover. My personal experience, though, has been that Linux often requires more initial administrative configuration than Windows usually does, making it harder to set up by a novice.
Selden

Janus
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#37by Janus » 30.07.2017, 21:08

@selden

I appreciate the thought, and have been told that often.
I have tried various flavors of linux, and found none usable for the long term.
Most of their desktops are useless to me.
The few that are, though an improvement, still lack coherence.

I actually use drive letters, the way linux does devices/directories, drives me nuts.
I personally can find neither rhyme, nor reason, nor any trace of logic to how linux guis, or newer windows guis truthfully, are layed out.
The control panel categories strike me as random.
The lack of coherence on drivers alone is mind boggling, which is why most of my limited work is on the command line.
Even if I use a gui to get where I want because that much typing to change directories is annoying.
The utter insistence on case sensitivity is also a non starter for me.

My biggest issue though, is file permissions.
That issue alone makes linux useless for me.
I do not use profiles in my work, I store nothing in it, preferring portable or stores local to the program versions of everything.
Over half of my problems with linux have been file permissions and it trying to store everything in a user directory.
I do not work that way, and I am aware that it is me.

In short, I have tried, and linux simply fails my personal usability test.

I appreciate the thought, but I will never be a heavy linux user.
It works fine for headless, embedded or server applications where repeatability is king.
Windows will likely never be able to match linux for repeatability once properly setup.
Linux is simply not worth the effort for me.
If someone ever develops a self consistent desktop that is a real gui, not just shell front ends that call commandline utilities, I will look it over again.

As annoying as Win7 is, at least I can force it to work.
I also do not have type in my root password every five minutes, or have constant popups telling this or that will not run as root for my own safety.
I do not want a sitter, if I wanted that, I would go use windows training wheels instead.

John Van Vliet
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#38by John Van Vliet » 01.08.2017, 00:42

What Desktop Manager ???

Gnome3 is GARBAGE AND UNUSABLE
Gnome2 was great
XFCE -- usable
Enlightenment -- GREAT but is meant to be hacked to WHAT YOU WANT it to be

i use KDE plasma5 on OpenSUSE Leap

i went windows free ( mostly 99.99% free) back in 2005 and never looked back


My biggest issue though, is file permissions.
that is one of the easiest things
LINUX IS NOT MICROSOFT WINDOWS!!!!!!!!!!!

for 99% of things you DO NOT!!!!!! need to be root ( administrator )
for the few things use "su -" to become root in the terminal -- you really should NEVER log into the GUI as root -- BIG security risk !!
or set up "sudo" if there are many users on the same machine
or use the gui su tool
ksu or gsu to run a program as root

many distros now have a very nice " run file manager -as root" in the menu
and "open terminal as root" in the menu

I also do not have type in my root password every five minutes,
nor do i
once the system is set up i really only need to become root to run a update ( when I !!!! WANT !!! IT TO RUN !!! )
or to install software
maybe once every few days

Janus
Janus
Posts: 61
With us: 1 year

#39by Janus » 01.08.2017, 02:53

John Van Vliet wrote:What Desktop Manager ???

Gnome3 is GARBAGE AND UNUSABLE
Gnome2 was great
XFCE -- usable
Enlightenment -- GREAT but is meant to be hacked to WHAT YOU WANT it to be

i use KDE plasma5 on OpenSUSE Leap
i went windows free ( mostly 99.99% free) back in 2005 and never looked back

Janus wrote: My biggest issue though, is file permissions.

that is one of the easiest things
LINUX IS NOT MICROSOFT WINDOWS!!!!!!!!!!!

for 99% of things you DO NOT!!!!!! need to be root ( administrator )
for the few things use "su -" to become root in the terminal -- you really should NEVER log into the GUI as root -- BIG security risk !!
or set up "sudo" if there are many users on the same machine
or use the gui su tool ksu or gsu to run a program as root
many distros now have a very nice " run file manager -as root" in the menu
and "open terminal as root" in the menu

Janus wrote:I also do not have type in my root password every five minutes,

nor do i
once the system is set up i really only need to become root to run a update ( when I !!!! WANT !!! IT TO RUN !!! )
or to install software
maybe once every few days


As far as desktop managers go, Mate at least doesn't suck, badly anyway.
I do not find kde friendly at all.
I have tried so many of them I long ago lost track.
Not once in any of them did I find any logic I could follow to how they were organized.

I am well aware that linux is not windows, I do not need to reminded of that again.
About my largest frustration with linux is the lack of hierarchy that I get along with.
I like being able to tell where I am at a glance, which linux makes very hard.

I like drive letters, it makes keeping track of drives simple, and intuitive. (intuitive for me anyway, I can't speak for anyone else.)
However, my single largest frustration and the core of my issue with it is thus.

I DO NOT USE PROFILES IN MY WORK OR IN MY ORGANIZATION!!!
THEY ARE NOT PART OF HOW I THINK!!!

Not mad, it is just that no one ever seems to hear me when I try to tell them this.
Even windows users assume I store everything in 'my documents' or other profile based garbage.
I have entire drives for classes of software or compilers or games.
I put absolutely nothing in my user profile that I can put elsewhere.
In fact, I seldom use 'program files' at all.

If I could manage to recompile seamonkey myself, I would put the profiles directory back under the install where I like it.
Please do not tell me to give firefox a try, I really do not like that program, though it is miles above and beyond chrome, or safari or opera for me.
My biggest complaint with firefox is the tabs, I HATE them.
The rest are worse, and even worse organized. (In my eyes anyway, other people can use whatever works for them.)
I like one button on the task bar per open window in my browser, that works for me.
The first thing I do on a fresh win7 install is turn off the pinning function and all that other garbage designed to get between me and my computer.

I run little software that I do not have the source for, or have compiled myself.
I do not click on get rich schemes.
I have my own domain and mail server.
I test software I am interested in using isolated VM's in virtualbox before they ever see any of my systems.
I have never used or installed anything from AOL, compuserve, or my ISP, ever!
I never run IE, OE, or have skype installed.
I do use or even believe in social media sites.

Working outside your profile in linux requires root most of the time.
The closest I have been able to get to a usable setup in linux involved making directories off of system root and mapping/mounting drives to them.
I actually found it stabler to make a directory I called 'Drives', and map them all there, never once looking at my profile.
However, working there as non root proved problematic.
I know what most people say, that is not how linux works.
I also know that, which is why I do not use linux if I can help it.

The newer versions of windows are broken by design.
Nearly everything I use for navigation, sorting or keeping track of things has been removed.
That is why it took me until this year to move to win7, and that was unwillingly.
I would call win 8 and later pieces of $&!*, except that then I could use them for fertilizer, when they are closer to weed killer in reality.

I found it frustrating when I discovered I could not compile the updated 64-bit code because I only had VS 2008, VS2010 & VS2012.
I have since traded for use of VS2013, all it is costing me is helping a customer with some small stuff to use a system they had to spare.
VS2015 & VS2017 have telemetry built into them, that makes them a security risk, so they will never touch my lan.
I had a stand alone with VS2015 community on it, but it timed out.
I have never had, nor shall I ever have, any microsoft account, period.

I am trying to get that code from github to compile on VS2013, because eigen crashes the compiler on earlier versions.
However, there is no guide to what is VS2015 or later only, which is frustrating.
'Final' is added to classes, which I do not understand, but VS2013 accepts so I am ignoring it.
snprintf is used, where other printf's are used elsewhere, and I have no idea why, it puzzles me.
The libraries with it are compiled with a newer VS, so I am having to recompile them all, as I can find the source code.

Once I have the 64-bit working with VS2013, I will move on to QT, probably 5.6 or later.
I have already made my private use fork use QT5, so it is just a matter of copying the changes over.
I was trying to maintain strong backwards compatibility, but Eigen killed that idea.
Eigen did need to be updated, I do not question that at all, sometimes you have to update even if you don't like it.

As I have stated before, I am not a C/C++ programmer.
I work much closer to the hardware.
I find that C is far to abstract for me to actually like it.
I provide working examples of code doing a specific job, which real programmers can then turn into objects/classes etc.

Also, case sensitive file and variable names drive me to distraction.
That is just a personal thing, a pet peeve so to speak, but another strike against linux in my book
If Linux works for you, then please, use it and enjoy.
It is the job of the OS to work with the user, not the user's job to work with the OS.
We made computers, we own them, they are ours.
Anything that forces its way between us and them, is restricting our ownership of them.
If a person wants to use their computer like an appliance, let them.
A grandson of a neighbor took tablet, not sure which kind, put netflix on it, then mapped a remote control to make it all work like a regular TV.
That never would have occurred to me, but that is how the world works.

Do not however, make the mistake of thinking that everyone thinks the way you do.
If that were the case, then technological progress would have long ago ground to a halt.
It takes differing view points to see things from multiple view points and angles.
The resulting compare and contrast, the sorting of appearance from what is.
That is what drives progress.

It is not impossible for Linux to work for me, someone may someday find or make way for it to make sense to me.
It is not impossible, not likely, but not impossible either.

Remember, minds are like parachutes, they have to open in order to work.


Janus.

John Van Vliet
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John Van Vliet
Posts: 2620
With us: 14 years 11 months

#40by John Van Vliet » 01.08.2017, 16:40

My biggest complaint with firefox is the tabs, I HATE them.
then install the firefox extension " classic theme restorer" and FIX IT


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